Edward Snowden - The Next Threat to Speech - TOKEN2049 Singapore 2024

.With Transcript

.

first off hello uh to everybody at token

0:09

249 Singapore it's been uh quite a long

0:12

time since I've been in Singapore I

0:14

think maybe

0:15

2009 uh and I was there uh working for

0:19

the CIA actually the embassy that's not

0:21

too far from you I

0:24

imagine the world has changed a lot in

0:27

15 years uh but what intelligence

0:30

services do really hasn't and and I want

0:33

to start with that because while their

0:37

practices haven't changed the scale of

0:40

them has and that's what really brought

0:42

me forward it's not that you know the

0:44

government was spying on somebody they

0:45

they've always done that it was that the

0:47

government was spying on

0:50

everybody and it wasn't that they didn't

0:52

want to do that in the past but they

0:54

didn't have the capability to do it we

0:56

were talking about things that were the

0:58

stockies you know wet

1:01

green and now we see that creeping

1:03

everywhere uh pav durov uh the founder

1:05

of telegram was one of the uh people

1:08

that I I tweeted about a few weeks ago I

1:10

had hoped to speak about here because I

1:13

think this really emblematizes uh what

1:16

has changed uh so for those who are

1:19

unfamiliar uh just a few weeks ago we

1:21

saw a well-coordinated effort by the old

1:23

powers to gain control over telegram by

1:27

taking its founder pav durov uh as

1:30

frankly a hostage uh in

1:33

France now they had been complaining

1:36

publicly that telegram which is not a

1:39

meaningfully secure messenger by the way

1:41

please don't call it a secure messenger

1:42

when you're describing to your friends

1:44

it's more like a a standard chat group

1:47

that has DMS attached it does have one

1:49

capability to send end end encrypted

1:51

texts called secret chats but almost no

1:54

one uses it

1:56

right anyway the state apparatus of the

1:59

US and Europe had been complaining that

2:00

telegram had not been providing them

2:02

enough control over its ecosystem the

2:06

ability to shut down channels at will as

2:08

they do on Facebook and everybody else

2:10

uh to doxs their users and so

2:13

on uh now because of some weaknesses in

2:17

telegram's design as a service telegram

2:21

did have this ability so the governments

2:24

knew telegram could be doing this if

2:26

they wanted to but telegram apparently

2:29

did make at least some efforts to resist

2:31

demands to share disability for for what

2:35

that's

2:36

worth so what happens uh durov is led to

2:40

France under whatever pretext I think

2:41

it's even public now he's immediately

2:44

tossed in the dungeon and Presto changjo

2:46

a few days later uh he's out on bail and

2:49

telegram changes its terms of

2:51

service that is the unfortunate reality

2:54

of how the world Works uh when you don't

2:56

architect Your Service uh to resist

2:58

State interference at the the protocol

3:00

and that's what's so special and

3:01

Powerful about crypto broadly Bitcoin

3:05

specifically U but you know is that kind

3:08

of

3:09

mentality where you design against the

3:11

worst possible case uh to avoid the

3:17

inevitable now uh in D's case I hope he

3:20

gets out and once he's in a free place

3:23

he genuinely fixes the design problem

3:24

that put him in the hot seat first place

3:26

uh by creating Service uh that does not

3:30

put too much power and and data in

3:32

vulnerable human hands you have to

3:34

design your app so that there will never

3:37

be a head that the state can point a gun

3:38

at or they will do

3:40

it but the real lesson here why it's so

3:42

important is not about der it's not

3:44

about telegram it's about

3:46

us we are all entering a new phase of

3:50

History where what we considered the

3:52

more enlightened collection of States

3:54

globally ones that had embraced the

3:56

classically liberal ideal and I want to

3:58

clarify here that uh I'm talking about

4:00

the supremacy of the individual's right

4:02

to themselves the right to decide and

4:05

direct one's life rather than you know

4:07

whatever it is that uh political parties

4:09

are brand branding is liberalism

4:12

today

4:14

uh the governments of these states that

4:17

used to

4:18

Champion that

4:21

idea are now some of those working

4:24

hardest to roll it back to

4:28

bureaucratize to fluence to nudge to

4:31

shape to ultimately control each and

4:33

every individual within their territory

4:36

and Beyond to the extent made newly

4:39

possible by

4:42

technology this is not a different story

4:44

than 2013 this is the

4:46

same now in their defense these states

4:50

genuinely seem to believe that this is

4:52

the path to Utopia uh that they

4:54

genuinely know what is good for you to a

4:57

greater extent than you do because

4:59

they're the

5:01

expert you know uh everyone in this

5:04

community you know knows knows the memes

5:06

whether you're going to eat the bugs or

5:07

or or

5:08

whatever

5:10

um the thing to remember is that this is

5:12

a story that we have seen play out in

5:15

history before uh you have the experts

5:18

telling you to go out into the field and

5:20

Kill The Sparrows and now we're in the

5:22

moment where we're waiting to see what's

5:24

going to happen

5:26

next so it seems to me that the fight

5:29

over Telegram and even the eu's new chat

5:32

control proposal which if you haven't

5:33

heard of it you very much need to go and

5:35

look out uh for it because the EU is

5:38

trying to push it again force it through

5:41

in the next few weeks it seems to me

5:43

that these proposals are less interested

5:45

in surveillance than they are in control

5:47

uh they're laying the procedural

5:49

framework for the global control the

5:52

voices of every volume and that's what

5:54

it's really about it's not that they're

5:56

worried about some secret conversation

5:57

it's not that they're trying to shake

5:59

down dur for the keys to some

6:01

conversation it's that they see people

6:03

talking in ways that they don't like

6:05

ways that they consider to be

6:06

misinformation ways that they consider

6:08

to be disinformation ways that they

6:09

consider to be socially harmful that

6:12

they consider to be uh structurally

6:15

undesirable and they want to silence it

6:18

and that is dangerous that's the point

6:20

of no return we lose that there's no

6:22

coming back which brings us to modernity

6:24

in all the ways that it's it's changing

6:27

around us uh this was not the sort of

6:29

talk I expected to have when I woke up

6:33

yesterday uh which I spent much of the

6:35

day reading about Israel's in precedent

6:37

a campaign of what by all appear Point

6:39

excuse

6:40

me of what by all reports appears to be

6:44

indistinguishable from terrorist

6:46

bombings uh consumer electronics across

6:50

countries simultaneously exploded in

6:52

Pockets hands

6:55

faces cars lost their drivers in mid

6:59

most

7:00

Pockets exploding you know at uh

7:03

checkout lines at the head height of

7:06

your

7:09

children now it's not the first time

7:11

that we've ever seen a remote

7:13

bomb um but it is the first time that

7:16

we've ever seen a broadcast bombing at

7:20

this scale a message sent of our public

7:22

communication systems that reaches

7:24

consumer electronics that are lying in

7:26

weight because this is how pagers work

7:29

right it's it's not like uh oneto one

7:31

these things are chiming back they're

7:32

checking in they're phoning home they're

7:34

just listening to the equivalent of

7:36

radio uh they hear the signal and they

7:39

go off the person who's triggering it

7:41

doesn't know who you are they don't know

7:43

where you're at they don't know whether

7:44

you're holding it your child is holding

7:45

it and demonstrably they do not

7:50

care uh you don't need to take a

7:53

position on the legitimacy of whatever

7:55

the hell it is today Hamas or

7:57

Hezbollah any of Israel targets one way

8:01

or the other to realize they have broken

8:02

a temp that is very very dangerous for

8:05

the comfortable life uh that we in sort

8:09

of the developed part of the world uh

8:11

have cocooned ourselves with nearly

8:13

every single one of you is carrying a

8:15

remotely controllable device on your

8:17

person that you have not opened and

8:18

inspected for explosives you probably

8:21

can't even open it and even without the

8:24

explosives right you go oh I'm not

8:26

worried about the mad right uh the

8:28

battery in your phone in your laptop in

8:32

your Electra car uh they hold tremendous

8:35

amounts of embodied energy and even if

8:37

it's not going to explode in the same

8:39

Violet way they can absolutely Catch

8:41

Fire you know you can go look at a a

8:43

line of them on

8:45

YouTube uh these are things that will

8:48

not far in the future be able to burn

8:50

your house down while you sleep as it's

8:53

on the charger in the other room at the

8:55

push of the button and who could be

8:57

playing right it wasn't China the

8:59

started

9:00

this uh and this brings me to the the

9:03

last

9:04

thing which is the rejection of our

9:08

Traditions by some in our our community

9:11

I I saw this recently uh and I don't

9:14

want to be unfair to sailor um be

9:18

contrary to his point here because I I

9:20

haven't followed it closely uh but I saw

9:23

someone digging up old quotes here and

9:25

they were saying I I'll read this that

9:28

we don't need to uh talk about like the

9:31

anarchist angles of Bitcoin we don't

9:34

want to talk about privacy we don't want

9:36

to talk about the UN interceptable

9:38

design we don't want to talk about the

9:39

fact that no one can silence it no one

9:42

uh can stop it because that's going to

9:44

make billionaires uncomfortable and they

9:46

want to be investing in something they

9:48

want it to be regulated they want it to

9:50

be controlled they want it uh to be

9:52

something that works for them and I I

9:53

think that's absolutely

9:55

wrong we need to talk about the rulin

9:58

values of the system the crypto part of

10:03

cryptocurrency that's what makes it

10:05

special uh I don't care if it makes

10:07

billionaires uncomfortable I don't care

10:09

if it makes JP Morgan slower to allocate

10:12

they don't get a vote because frankly

10:14

they're coming along on this ride

10:15

whether they like it or not the dollar

10:18

is

10:20

done uh Nothing Stops this train as when

10:23

Alden says it debasement is baked into

10:26

our models we see what's happening with

10:28

the uh

10:30

percentage of currency issuance the

10:33

deficit spending uh it might not happen

10:36

this year it might not happen next year

10:37

might not happen in five years but it's

10:39

very clear looking at the progress of

10:41

History where these things end uh we are

10:43

in the age of paper uh but it is on the

10:46

decline it is coming to the end it's not

10:48

about any flag uh it's about the method

10:51

it's what the system is built on there

10:53

is no basis no strong foundation so we

10:57

as a community need to focus on keeping

10:59

alive the thing that made our currency

11:03

Prosper where all the others have

11:06

failed uh less comfortably I think it

11:10

also means recognizing that a lot of

11:12

altcoin activity uh doesn't serve much

11:15

purpose in the crypto space uh frankly

11:18

beyond the delution of the broader

11:21

crypto monetary base not all of it

11:24

certainly there are some good projects

11:25

out there but every single one of you in

11:27

the audience uh call to an example to

11:30

mind where you would agree that even if

11:33

we dress it up nice

11:35

uh it is just the scami form of rug

11:38

lying in weight uh that you can imagine

11:41

and it's happening again and again and

11:43

again and again um people are seeing it

11:47

like gambling okay you know maybe it's

11:49

like a lottery okay uh but think about

11:53

the systemic effect that this is having

11:55

if it's not cordoned off if it's not

11:57

sort of the toxic waste everyone

11:58

recognizes for what it is and a lot of

12:00

people don't I think people are wising

12:03

up as a community more broadly but

12:05

there's more participants right there's

12:07

a new sucker born every day as they say

12:10

h and we shouldn't be that way we

12:11

shouldn't be exploiting suckers we

12:13

should be building a new world because

12:15

we're already there and with the old

12:17

system right when the government robs

12:19

you at least you can look at the road oh

12:21

maybe I help build that uh if this

12:25

community is instead just merely buying

12:27

some excuse me useless jackass and even

12:30

more useless expensive watch uh which

12:33

system is better we need to be able to

12:36

answer that as we occupy a more

12:38

prominent place in the world we have to

12:41

do better if we want to live better uh

12:46

so with that I I just say

12:50

look we need to focus on not being a

12:52

part of problem we have an extraordinary

12:54

opportunity here we have changed the

12:56

world in so many ways and the world is

12:58

coming around to listen uh they are

13:00

beginning to buy in they are beginning

13:01

to participate they see the value and we

13:03

don't even have to argue it anymore uh

13:06

we have a responsibility to be good

13:08

stewards of the moment in history that

13:11

has been created by us for us and that

13:14

we will pass to

13:16

others and this is to say when you look

13:18

at everything happening when you look at

13:20

uh the desperation for a new control

13:22

over speech uh when you look at the rise

13:24

of these new disruptive Technologies uh

13:27

of modernity such as um AI the way it's

13:31

uh evolving it can be great for us it

13:34

can also be very terrible for us it

13:35

depends on who is holding the levers of

13:37

power and how we decentralize them uh

13:40

when you look at the new ways consumer

13:42

electronics are being turned against us

13:44

uh from how they used to be in small

13:47

individual targeted cases to now Mass

13:49

broadcast level cases and you see

13:52

leaders in our space uh trying to reject

13:55

our uh old traditions the ones that are

13:58

valuable the ones that created the

14:02

space I think the lessons are clear and

14:05

this is to say that we should defy

14:09

bureaucracy we should reject modernity

14:12

Embrace tradition and you'll save the

14:15

world that's all we have to do thank you

14:18

let's go to a question

14:24

two all right thank you very much Edward

14:27

um we do have runners in the audience if

14:29

I've got a hand up I'll uh send a

14:31

microphone over your way I've got

14:32

somebody right over there he's already

14:33

got a mic sir fire away all right thank

14:36

you Mr Snowden for all that you do in

14:38

the world um you mentioned the

14:40

importance of Protocols are there any

14:41

emerging protocols that give you hope

14:43

for the new world that we're building

14:45

yes I'm not going to endorse anything uh

14:49

specifically I can say look I've seen a

14:51

lot of good protocols I've seen a lot of

14:53

calcified protocols uh Bitcoin obviously

14:56

I have been a huge fan of for a long

14:58

time that's something that really feels

14:59

calcified to me we know it has a privacy

15:01

problem I've been saying this every year

15:04

at every one of these conferences for

15:05

the last 10 years it still hasn't been

15:07

fixed uh they're frankly not even trying

15:09

to fix people like oh lightning

15:10

lightning lightning it doesn't work it

15:12

doesn't fix the problem it's not correct

15:14

it's not a solution uh we have seen a

15:16

lot of application of zero knowledge

15:18

things that are useful uh we've seen

15:20

cross chain bridges that have really uh

15:23

become useful and exciting but they

15:24

don't uh answer that privacy aspect I

15:27

think the Privacy aspect is the most

15:29

important uh problem facing crypto today

15:31

because again we're talking about

15:33

billionaires we're talking about big

15:34

money we're talking about the states uh

15:36

if you guys don't fix the Privacy

15:38

problem you are going to be facing the

15:39

durov problem whether it's your Bridge

15:42

whether it's tornado cach whether it's

15:44

whatever the gun is going to be facing

15:45

your head uh unless you make sure that

15:48

people can use your systems

15:51

permissionless and

15:53

privately all right thank you very much

15:55

I know the runners are we've got

15:57

microphone ready right down here thank

15:58

you hi Edward Brendan from ARA block

16:01

you're a wonderful human being first and

16:03

foremost um I worked in National

16:06

Security in Europe in the Middle East 20

16:08

years ago I learned a lot of truths that

16:09

were unsettling quick question how do we

16:13

Design Technology from first principles

16:15

so we know it's

16:18

safe big question I mean there's

16:20

probably thank you very much uh there

16:22

there's probably people who are in the

16:24

audience much better qualified to answer

16:26

that than I do uh than I am um I I mean

16:29

when you look back at the the Bitcoin

16:31

white paper I I think what you see is an

16:34

adversarial approach to the system and

16:36

that's really what you have to be

16:37

considering a lot of people and you know

16:40

I I don't want to name names but salana

16:42

uh are taking good uh ideas and they're

16:46

just going well what if we just

16:47

centralized everything it'll be faster

16:49

it'll be more efficient it'll be cheaper

16:50

and yeah sure it is you're right uh but

16:54

nobody's using it but for like meme

16:56

coins and scams uh because if anybody

16:58

puts anything significant on it and then

17:00

all the states begin moving towards it

17:03

uh it's going to be a system that has

17:06

levers that people can simply just take

17:08

from you you have to be thinking for the

17:10

adversarial case as opposed to the

17:13

convenient easy early case I mean that's

17:16

uncomfortable for like a lot of these

17:18

founder mode people who are like oh no

17:20

we need the minimum viable product this

17:22

that and the other sure um if you're

17:25

trying to get rich that'll work uh and

17:28

you a lot of people have demonstrated

17:30

that they'll continue to do that but if

17:31

you want something that will last you

17:34

have to engineer it to last and that

17:36

means thinking about how it's going to

17:37

be attacked and making sure it can

17:39

survive that because we at crypto we

17:41

living on the X on the ground right you

17:44

are at the

17:45

insection you are where the bombs are

17:48

going to drop uh let's make sure that we

17:50

have roofs that can survive them all

17:52

right thank you where's my microphones

17:53

or people have either hands up or if

17:55

somebody has a microphone in their hand

17:57

can I get a hand with you in the back

17:59

yes okay please yeah so you mentioned

18:02

some issues with uh current you know

18:07

governments and the past systems not

18:11

working for the people but I'm curious

18:14

to understand uh I'm I'm still skeptical

18:19

that crypto is a solution to that and

18:21

I'm also skeptical of what are certain

18:27

models or systems that can help help

18:29

move us forward from you know State

18:32

control or being in a fascist State uh

18:37

so I'm curious about some of your

18:39

thoughts about moving into like you

18:42

mentioned like a new world or like a new

18:45

uh we're moving into a new paradigm um

18:48

yeah I'm still skeptical of that I'm

18:50

curious to hear your thoughts of what

18:52

are the steps to take in that direction

18:54

maybe it's not just crypto yeah thank

18:56

you sure thank you um so look the uh

19:00

bottom line here is crypto is not a

19:02

solution to all the world's problems uh

19:05

crypto can be a solution to some private

19:07

or some some uh layers of the problem

19:11

set and that's what's key right when we

19:13

look at what happened in 2013 the

19:15

revelations of mass surveillance this

19:17

had all be done without any public

19:19

participation without any debate even

19:21

members of Congress in the United States

19:23

uh where these intelligence agencies are

19:24

saying you guys passed the laws that

19:27

made this legal uh Congress was saying

19:29

we didn't authorize that that wasn't Our

19:31

intention it's not supposed to do this

19:33

the courts in the United States said

19:35

whoa hold up this program is illegal

19:38

took them 10 years to get to that point

19:40

post Revelation even when they had the

19:43

evidence but they eventually say this is

19:44

ille shouldn't be doing it uh the

19:46

agencies keep doing it the whole time

19:48

through right through legal changes

19:51

through uh judicial precedence how why

19:54

how do you control well what we realized

19:57

is that law doesn't always work as a

19:59

restraint on the state uh because it

20:01

doesn't have penalties for the state

20:03

when the state breaks the law right uh

20:05

they don't go to jail uh nobody's going

20:08

to slap a pair of cuffs on the CIA

20:10

that's just not how the world works but

20:12

what if we could enforce human rights

20:14

through new means through math through

20:16

Technologies through something that

20:19

these agencies don't control that's the

20:21

power of encryption it's the power of

20:22

cryptocurrency you can create protected

20:25

spaces that they can't interfere with

20:27

now again that's only one part of the

20:31

problem but it's a reliable part and

20:33

that's what we do what happens when you

20:35

talk about the new world uh what happens

20:37

if the state is no longer in control of

20:40

money uh you fix the money you fix the

20:43

state and uh Wars have always been

20:46

financed throughout history on the basis

20:48

of deficit spending if Government can't

20:51

just ransack uh not only their own

20:54

treasuries not only their own tax Bas

20:56

but the savings uh of everyone in their

20:59

country and frankly everybody else in

21:00

their country we're talking about things

21:01

like the US uh where you've got the

21:03

world Reserve currency you'll see a much

21:05

more peaceful world

21:09

uh at least that's the hope uh but we

21:12

don't know uh what we do know is what we

21:15

can do what we do know is that there are

21:17

places uh that we can make a difference

21:19

with right we're just

21:21

technologists uh we're just people who

21:23

see there are places where the law fails

21:28

but maybe we can create a safety net for

21:31

when that fails maybe we can put up more

21:33

safeguards to encode our values that

21:37

liberal ideal uh that the individual has

21:40

some claim over themselves that Society

21:44

uh you know we do want uh courts we do

21:48

want prisons for bad people uh we want

21:51

to have a safe world even if we don't

21:52

want you know every other person in jail

21:56

uh we recognize that it is a dangerous

21:57

world we need some level of policy

22:00

procedure uh to take care of that we

22:02

need layers of protection right uh and

22:06

the way that we intermingle these the

22:07

way that we intermar these the way that

22:09

we interlock these things uh is to make

22:11

sure

22:12

that uh we don't have a single point of

22:15

failure where you get a bad president

22:18

you get a bad legislature you get a bad

22:20

court and it's all over you're done it's

22:23

supposed to be the people that correct

22:25

these

22:26

systems uh but the people have been

22:29

pacified uh we need something that is

22:32

always working for us even when we're

22:34

sleeping uh or even when we don't get a

22:38

vote when it's taken from us because in

22:40

a lot of countries that is the reality

22:43

uh but if we can encode these values

22:44

into our protocols they'll protect

22:46

people not just in our home not just in

22:48

our countries but around the world and

22:51

that is the promise of these new layers

22:53

of these new uh systems for interaction

22:57

for Association for speech for trade uh

23:00

we can give Freedom everyone everywhere

23:03

all the time and it can't be taken away